C. Steven: Hi. Today, we're talking to Jennifer Woolf. Jennifer Woolf is the CEO...no, I'm sorry. She is the creator of figurativewriting.com and The Children's Creative Writing Institute. But before we get to those two austere organizations, let's talk about you and how you got started. Now, you and I met years ago when we were both working in the film industry. But before that, you moved out here from where?

Jennifer: Baltimore.

C. Steven: Baltimore.

Jennifer: So Baltimore by way of Rochester. I studied political science and creative writing at the University of Rochester, which I loved. It's an amazing place, but it's really, really cold. It starts snowing in September and it doesn't stop until April. So I packed two suitcases after I graduated, and said, "I'm going to California." And...

C. Steven: Wow, so was it just the cold?

Jennifer: Yeah, it was just the cold. It's really a great place and a great city, but I was really, really cold.

C. Steven: Now, why Rochester from Baltimore?

Jennifer: I happened to visit on the one nice day they had during the year. It was sometime in April, and it was beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. And it was a great place. I don't regret it for a second.

C. Steven: And you got your degree there?

Jennifer: Yes.

C. Steven: Okay.

Jennifer: In Political Science and Creative Writing, and then out to California.

C. Steven: And then what happened when you got to sunny Cal?

Jennifer: When I got to California, I got a job as a production assistant on "The Twilight Zone" TV show, which was a lot of fun. I was on a lot. And then six weeks later, I was driving to work and I heard on the radio that the show was canceled. So that was my great introduction to Hollywood.

C. Steven: I mean, that's how you found out?

Jennifer: Yeah, that's how we all found out.

C. Steven: Oh my God, you mean the whole production office had no idea?

Jennifer: Yeah. I mean, we knew we were in trouble. We knew it wasn't good, but we didn't know the show was gonna get canceled that quickly.

C. Steven: Oh my God, talk about baptism by fire.

Jennifer: Yeah. And then I ended up at Fries Entertainment, where I met you.

C. Steven: Right, right, our fabulous Fries days that we all remember. It's kind of funny that...I talk to people. You know, there are times in their lives when they come across like core teams that just, for some reason, really clicked well and really worked together. And, you know, since Fries, I worked as a project manager at Honda and at Toyota, and there was like a core team at both those places, where we just still get together, you know, once a year, even, because, you know, it's been some time since we've been there. And Fries was that place for me.

Jennifer: It just clicked. We definitely had a group that clicked.

C. Steven: Yeah. I mean, the fact that I met my wife there has absolutely nothing to do with it. But, yes, I mean, I really enjoyed it. And so there, what were you doing?

Jennifer: I was reading scripts, looking for TV movies.

C. Steven: And?

Jennifer: So we found a few. But I learned a lot. You really learn a lot. When you read piles and piles of scripts, you see things you like, things you don't like.

C. Steven: When you came out here to California, was it with the design of getting into screenwriting?

Jennifer: Yes, yeah, absolutely.

C. Steven: Okay, but when you were in college, you weren't studying screenwriting, or were you?

Jennifer: I was studying creative writing.

C. Steven: Okay.

Jennifer: Also political science, which I just liked. I wanted to study something I liked in college. And then creative writing, which I knew I wanted to pursue.

C. Steven: Okay. And so as a reader, did you feel that you had any, I don't know, insight into story, into what would make a good TV movie?

Jennifer: Oh, absolutely. And you know, even if you don't know the terminology, anybody can read a script and know if the characters are compelling, if the plot moves, if it's interesting. If you don't have the background, you might not know why it works or why it doesn't work. But you can still get a pretty good idea, I think.

C. Steven: Okay. And from there, did you write any spec scripts?

Jennifer. I did. I even had one optioned, or two optioned, but nothing was ever made.

C. Steven: Okay. Talk to me about the optioning process.

Jennifer: Well, the producer will just call and say, "Hey, I'd like to option the screenplay." And then you give them a certain amount of time, either a year or two years, to get it set up, and then you have everything else worked out in the contract. And then you go off and try to get it set up.

C. Steven: How involved do you get in that process, when the producer's trying to set it up? Do you always, or do they, the producer, keep you at arm's length during that process and say, "Hey, thank you for this. Thank you for letting me have your work. We'll call you when something happens." Or is there a way that you can be more actively involved?

Jennifer: I think it really depends on the producer. It depends on the writer. I think, now, I would wanna be more involved. At that time, no. I didn't really know that many people in California or Los Angeles. I didn't know that many people in the film business. I think, now, it would be a little bit easier for me.

C. Steven: Yeah.

Jennifer: On different direction and...you know, my focus has changed.

C. Steven: Right. So what happened after Fries?

Jennifer: What happened after Fries? Let's see, I kept writing, I got married, I had kids, and I set up my tutoring business.

C. Steven: But, I mean, you kept writing through, I mean, your kids' youth, right? I mean, you didn't just stop writing and then when they were out of the house, "Then I'm back to writing?"

Jennifer: I'm still writing. I'm still working on some articles. I'm always writing.

C. Steven: And did you get articles...were you doing some non-fiction stuff when you first started?

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

C. Steven: What kind of stuff was that?

Jennifer: Some automotive writing...

C. Steven: Automotive?

Jennifer: Automotive. I have a thing for cars. In fact, one of my in-between jobs was selling cars.

C. Steven: That's [crosstalk 00:06:45]...

Jennifer: So I...you know, the whole California Freeway System, to someone who's from Baltimore, is fascinating. It's a little bit clogged today, but it's still fascinating. So I like writing about cars.

C. Steven: So when you write about cars, I mean, are you like a technical writer about cars and talking about, you know, torque versus...I don't know.

Jennifer: A little bit, the torque, the suspension system, but also how it feels, how it handles, how it rides.

C. Steven: So you're reviewing cars, too?

Jennifer: Yeah.

C. Steven: Oh man, that's impressive. Okay, so what about story-editing, did you do any story-editing?

Jennifer: I did not do that much story-editing. I'm more of "found the script" and then pass it along.

C. Steven: Okay. So that was your time at Fries?

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

C. Steven: Okay, got it. So then tell me about what you're doing now, The Children's Creative Writing Institute?

Jennifer: So now, I am focused on helping the next generation learn how to write because I really feel that writing is the critical skill for the 21st century. Most of our communication is in writing. Your first impression is in writing. So I started tutoring elementary school kids. And then I wanted to create something a little bit bigger that would allow me to reach more than just one-on-one so I created The Children's Creative Writing Institute and worked on teaching kids how to come up with characters, how to write stories.

And from there, I realized that kids, really, are missing out on more of the fundamentals of writing. There have been so many cutbacks in education. Classes are so overcrowded. Teachers are so pressured to teach to the test that they really don't have a lot of time to teach fundamental writing skills. So I thought about how to make writing fun and I came up with figurativewriting.com, which teaches figurative language.

C. Steven: Okay, so I've got so many follow-up questions. It's crazy. But the first one is...

Jennifer: I threw a lot out at you.

C. Steven: Yeah. The first question I have then would be what is figurative writing?

Jennifer: Okay, figurative language is what makes writing fun. It's hyperboles, and similes, onomatopoeia, personification. It's all those things that we might use in our everyday speech, but we don't really think about. We don't really give a name to it. Basically, it makes writing really fun. Hyperbole is really big exaggeration. Even a kid who doesn't like to write, when I explain what hyperbole is and, you know, turn this into an exaggeration, "That was a tall dog," and they'll come up with all sorts of crazy things.

C. Steven: That was a dog that rivaled the Empire State Building, something like that.

Jennifer: Exactly. It's fun.

C. Steven: So how old are the kids?

Jennifer: I tutor kindergarten through sixth grade.

C. Steven: And, I mean, do they really spark to this?

Jennifer: Yeah, they really do. You look very surprised.

C. Steven: I know. I am surprised because you think about the society that we live in, and especially what children are being taught in terms of the written word, I would think there first written word is "texting" and that's not even complete sentences. You know, that's just shorthand. "Emails," which isn't much better. So I'm kinda surprised that kids are interested in this.

Jennifer: I will tell you that grammar is a tougher sell. You know, if I try to teach, "Where do you put the comma," that's a lot less interesting to most kids than, "Come up with an onomatopoeia."

C. Steven: Well...

Jennifer: It definitely sparks some creativity.

C. Steven: One of my questions, and I'll circle back to yet another question. But do you think that creativity is something that is innate or do you think it's something that's learned?

Jennifer: I think it's innate. I think we are all creative. I think that, as adults, you know, we tend to judge ourselves. We're so busy. We're a lot less creative because of other pressures. But I think that it's definitely something that is innate, and every human on the planet has a creative element to them.

C. Steven: So as kids get older, when do you think that starts happening, where there are outside pressures that start to suppress that creativity?

Jennifer: I think by middle school, they start to censor themselves. I think that elementary school kids are 100% creative. But I think, definitely, by middle school, when they're overwhelmed with homework, peer pressure, it definitely gets a lot harder to hold on to that.

C. Steven: And this is on top of like just the external teaching that they get from people who say, "Look, you just can't say anything that pops into your head."

Jennifer: Exactly.

C. Steven: As a writer, you want to write down anything that pops into your head.

Jennifer: That's why journaling is so important. I think that if kids have journals, they're not worried about what anybody is gonna think. They're just sort of free to experiment. I think journals definitely go a long way towards creating good writers.

C. Steven: And that's something you teach?

Jennifer: No, it's something I encourage. I think it should be private. I don't think anybody really needs to be taught how to journal. It's a place where kids aren't...or anybody, you're not judged for what you write. You're able to just create or express your feelings or do whatever you want. It's your private journal. There's no rule. You just have to sit down and do it. That's the only, that's the only rule.

C. Steven: And do you have a journal?

Jennifer: I do have a journal.

C. Steven: And, I mean, do you keep it up to date?

Jennifer: You know, I don't do it every day, maybe a couple of times a week.

C. Steven: Oh, I mean, that's better than 99% of the people out there.

Jennifer: You think so?

C. Steven: Yeah, I think we all had journals, you know, when we were kids, especially, you know, when we were going through those awkward teenage years and we're full of angst over, you know, whether or not we're gonna make the team, or whether the girl likes us, and all of that. But I think it kinda fell to the wayside when the girl did like us, or we made the team, and we no longer had to, you know, get that angst out.

Jennifer: Well, honestly, I had actually stopped journaling. And then last summer, I did a fellowship at Cal State LA for Teachers of Writing, for the Writing Project that's housed at Cal State LA. And every morning, from about 9:00 to 9:30, we would journal. That's how we started the day. And it was fantastic.

C. Steven: Do you think journaling is the same as free-writing?

Jennifer: Mm-hmm. It can be.

C. Steven: So would you make a distinction between the two?

Jennifer: Yeah, absolutely. I think journaling, when we think of journaling, we think more about writing your feelings, writing about what's going on, whereas free-writing is more like, "Hey, look, there's a squirrel and a butterfly," whatever pops into your head. But a lot of times, when we sit down to journal, we don't have anything specific to write about so we can start out free-writing. And then one thing can lead to another. And you can even start out writing, "Blah, blah, blah," and then eventually, you'll move on from there, and something decent will come out.

C. Steven: That's probably good advice for any writer out there. I mean, I know that...I can't think of her name, but the woman who wrote the...I can't even think of the name of the book. "Writing on the Left Side of the Brain," that book.  

Jennifer: Oh.

C. Steven: She encouraged people to journal or free-write in the morning before they got started, to actually work on their writing. And, you know, that first draft is always going to be almost like free-writing because you just don't necessarily want to censor anything. It's the rewriting process that goes back and cleans it up. So I can certainly see that as an amazing and a good idea for most people. Interesting enough, something else which, I think, would apply to the children, too, coloring. It's like when you color something, you're given a blank, you know, black and whites with lines to color within or without, it like makes you more left-brained. And as a result, it kinda frees up that creativity. Have you heard that?

Jennifer: I have, and I think that that's true. I have a lot of worksheets, particularly character and plot, or character and setting worksheets, where I'll have the bottom half of the page is lined for writing and the top half is open for coloring. Because, yeah, it is important and it does...sometimes, kids will wanna color first and then write, and sometimes, they'll write first and then color. And either way is good.

C. Steven: That's interesting. And what about, you know, when you talk about character and you talked about setting, are you also teaching structure?

Jennifer: Of course, of course. But, you know, these are difficult concepts for kids so, you know, I'll start out with beginning, middle, and end, and then we'll go from there. And I'll have graphic organizers that take it a little bit further and show them how to escalate the problem. So the beginning and the middle, you have the problem, and it gets worse and worse and worse. And that's always a lot of fun to teach because they really have to be creative about how to make the problem worse. And sometimes, I'll get all sorts of whacky stuff.

C. Steven: Yeah.

Jennifer: But it's really a lot of fun to watch them stretch because, you know, "Okay, I came up with the problem. Okay, I solved it." "Well, no, you gotta make the problem worse."

C. Steven: Yeah, because they solved it too quickly.

Jennifer: Right.

C. Steven: Right. What about grammar? Because you say that that's a tougher sell. Is it because they're so young or is it just the English language is just a crazy, crazy thing to try and understand?

Jennifer: The English language is crazy, but it could also be my own personal preference. I would rather make up characters than worry about semi-colons. I mean, it's a little bit like eating vegetables to me but, you know, obviously, it's very important. So what I'll do is I'll start out with a little warm-up activity, and then I'll do maybe a one-page worksheet on where you put the quotation marks and I'll just sort of sneak it in there. But, yeah, you need grammar. It's very important.

C. Steven: Well, I mean, something that's as basic as a quotation mark. But, you know, as kids get older, I would imagine, and this writing sort of takes off from just a, you know, fun class exercise to something that's, "Hey, you know, I've got a really good idea for a story." Somehow or somewhere, it has to inhabit their work.

Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

C. Steven: So I always feel that that's something...I mean, because my grammar is so atrocious at this age, that the fundamentals were never really covered when I was a kid.

Jennifer: Yeah, I think schools are doing a pretty good job of covering the fundamentals of grammar, "Start the sentence with a capital letter, put a period at the end," but they don't really go much further than that. I think you're right. I think that we do need to focus more on it.

C. Steven: I mean...

Jennifer: And I actually should probably focus more on it when I tutor. But I am really...my thing is to make sure that it's fun and engaging, and I do sprinkle a little bit in, but I should actually think about adding a little bit more.

C. Steven: Well, to that extent, how long have you been doing this?

Jennifer: I've been doing this, let's see, this is 2017, for about seven years.

C. Steven: So have you met any sixth graders seven years ago, who are now, you know, 18 or 19 and they're still writing?

Jennifer: You know, I'm sure they're still writing, but I think a lot of them have kind of moved on to whatever they're studying in college whether it's engineering or pre-med, or whatever it is.

C. Steven: So you don't have any famous authors that you started in your tutorial program, yet.

Jennifer: Not yet. I'm still hopeful, though.

C. Steven: Okay, we just wanted to see. What about your kids? Are they into the creative side at all?

Jennifer: They are. They are very creative. So my oldest had a musical, a one-act musical, that was just...that she wrote, she produced, she directed it, she wrote the lyrics, the music, everything. And that was at PianoFight in San Francisco.

C. Steven: Wow.

Jennifer: That was really fun.

C. Steven: That's amazing. And so, yeah, she did it all herself, which means she'll really fit into Hollywood well.

Jennifer: Yeah. She got a grant in the Music Department at Berkeley and she took the money and ran with it.

C. Steven: Did she credit you at all, you know, "I wanna thank my mom for this, you know, creative..."

Jennifer: She has a lot of people to credit. She did a good job.

C. Steven: That's fantastic. So I guess with creating and working on creativity with kids, what do you think that we, as adults, can do to kinda foster that without being, I don't know, I don't wanna say permissible but, you know, without being crazy, without putting any structure into a child's life?

Jennifer: I think encouragement. I think encouragement is the most important thing, if we encourage them to read, we encourage them to write, and not being judgmental. You don't wanna stand over them and say, you know, "You need the comma here," or, you know, "Why is that character named whatever? Why did that character use a cuss word?" Just let them write. Let them have time to experiment.

C. Steven: Now, maybe I probably didn't really focus the question correctly, then. I'm thinking that, you know, as kids get older, you know, society, parents, teachers, you know, enforce more and more structure into a child's life, you know. When we were in kindergarten, in first grade, I mean, our big thing was, you know, recess, and then we'd come back in we'd still be playing in the classroom, you know. And maybe we'd open up a book and read about, you know, "See Spot Run," and all that.

But as we got older, we were more and more pigeonholed. I don't know if that's the correct word. But we were put into a stronger structured way of doing things from, you know, the classroom, from having to say the Pledge of Allegiance, to when the bell rings, we change classes, we have, you know, couple of minutes between classes, and things like that. Do you think that that process of just growing up and just getting older and just having more structure in your life, do you think that that crushes creativity?

Jennifer: I don't think it crushes it. I think that it crowds it out. I think that the kids still have a lot of creativity. They just don't have the time to pursue it. So it would be nice if they had more time.

C. Steven: Do you teach in terms of just working with the kids? Do you teach that there is a writing time, and then now, writing time is over and there's time to do something else?

Jennifer: Not really. I sort of go with whatever the situation I'm presented with is. So a lot of times, when I'm tutoring, I really needed to sort of supplement the work that's going on in school. So there isn't that much time for creativity. Over the summer, when I tutor, I emphasize...particularly over the summer, that's the time to let these kids just be creative and go with it. But, you know, it's a fair criticism, I think, that they don't have enough time to be creative during the school year. And I wish they did.

C. Steven: It's this dichotomy between, you know, let's be creative and let's play and, you know, let's get something on the page, and then also, let's be disciplined. And let's say that, you know, as an adult, I know that I have my writing time, you know. No matter what I'm doing, you know, my butt needs to be in this chair at a certain time and I need to be writing as opposed to anything else. And that's only, I guess, because I'm down a professional path and I work as a professional writer. Kids, obviously, aren't gonna be professionals. And I guess you're not...well, I don't know. It feels to me like you're training the future writers of America, and that, you know, we're gonna see great things from these kids who started learning this, you know, at that very, very young age.

Jennifer: I hope so. I really hope so. I mean, I think that it encourages them to go down a path of creativity. And whether it's writing or entrepreneurship, whatever it is, just understanding that they are creative and they can trust their own creativity. And I think that that's the biggest thing I want these to kids to take away.

C. Steven: And what about their parents? Are you training their parents as well?

Jennifer: Absolutely. Absolutely, I'm training their parents on how to allow them to be creative.

C. Steven: And do you get any pushback from parents at all?

Jennifer: I don't get a lot of pushback. Sometimes, you know, a kid wants to come up with a character that's like, "The moon is made out of poop first," you know, whatever it is, it's fine with me. As long as they're writing, as long as they're being creative, poop can play into it as much as they want.

C. Steven: Why not?

Jennifer: Right, poop is funny. Farting is funny. If they wanna write a story where it's all about farting, that's okay with me as long as it has a beginning, a middle, and an end.

C. Steven: It is funny, especially in this house. But go ahead.

Jennifer: So at first, you know, the parents were sort of uptight about it. And then I have to encourage the parents to relax and let the kids just go with it.

C. Steven: Okay. And are you doing this one-on-one or are you doing this in groups or both?

Jennifer: Actually, both. I do a fair amount of one-on-one. I also teach at Cal State LA through the Writing Project, so...

C. Steven: And what is that?

Jennifer: The Writing Project is a subsidiary of the National Writing Project. They have sites at 200 colleges and universities. And we basically train the teachers on how to train the teachers of the teachers, the student teachers, and the students. So we really hit every level along the food chain when it comes to writing.

C. Steven: That's fantastic. I'm totally impressed by that. You know, I gotta say that I wouldn't have the patience for it. Of course, I wouldn't have the, you know...you've raised two beautiful daughters, and obviously, you've had to develop patience whether you had it or not.

Jennifer: You know what? I, naturally, have a lot of patience. I don't know why. I'm a patience person.

C. Steven: So nothing gets to you?

Jennifer: It takes a lot. When it gets to me, it gets to me. But on a regular basis, yeah, I can just roll with it.

C. Steven: So don't get to that breaking point with Jen.

Jennifer: Right. You try really hard not to get to that breaking point.

C. Steven: Well, this has been fantastic. I really appreciate the time you spent with us. Tell us where people can reach out and learn more about you and about your...

Jennifer: Well, two places. You can go to figurativewriting.com to learn all about figurative writing. There's a lot of free worksheets, a lot of free information, plus a workbook that's for sale, which we'll make a discounted coupon code for your listeners.

C. Steven: Oh, fantastic.

Jennifer: And then you can also go to The Children's Creative Writing Institute, which is ccwi.net, ccwi.net.

C. Steven: Okay and...

Jennifer: [Inaudible 00:28:49] two websites. So whatever your writing needs are, I think we should be able to handle them there.

C. Steven: Okay, and if people wanna reach you directly.

Jennifer: Oh, you can also find me on Instagram. I forgot about that.

C. Steven: Oh.

Jennifer: So I'm figurativewriting" on Instragram, and on Facebook, I am "The Children's Creative Writing Institute.

C. Steven: Okay.

Jennifer: So you can just hit me up on Facebook, that's probably the easiest, under "Children's Creative Writing Institute," or Instagram. So either one is good.

C. Steven: Okay, that's fantastic. Thanks, Jen. You have been absolutely great.

Jennifer: Well, thanks to you. I'm really impressed with you. I'm so happy that your books are out. It's been really fun reading them, watching you get them out there.

C. Steven: Thanks. Bye.

Jennifer: Bye.

Jennifer Woolf discusses teaching creativity to children.

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